OK, what does the Messiah look like in this text? Does he come down from heaven? Is he divine? What is his principal role?
Post at least a 100 word response to this question, giving evidence from the text. Remember that you also need to respond to at least two other of the main responses of those in the class.
Thanks!
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There is much talk about the Messiah being a king from the line of David. (17,8) talks about a man who is this man being alien to our race, possbily coming from heaven. (17,36) gives us evidence that this Messiah is without sin and gets his wisdom from God. This would be proof that this man is indeed divine if he lives a perfect life. All nations fear him and He has come to judge the nations and overthrow them with the words of his mouth. (17,31) talks about how the Messiah will lead the people back to their homeland from captivity and redistribute the land according to the twelved tribes. This may be the priniciple role of the Messiah?
The Messiah seems to be one that comes from the Davidic line and restores proper worship in the temple. "Shattering unrighteous rulers" seems to be one of the expectations of a task that this king will accomplish. There appears to be an expectation for a mighty king who will destroy all wickedness, but there is no indication that there is an expectation that this king will be divine. He is definitely anointed of God and his "words are more refined than costly gold." I can tell where they get the term "Son of God" from. Towards the end of one of the chapters, it mentions that "the Lord himself is our king forever and ever." There seems to be a sense in which God reigns through this new messianic king.
COMMENT (2 of 2) to teamdime29
You have seem to have made similar observations as I have, but I did not catch the part where he would come from heaven. Once, again you did a great job at referring back to passages in the book. I think you are right on target. This person that is described sure sounds a lot like Jesus of Nazareth to me. I'm pretty sure that when He came they were kind of expecting someone sent from God, but not God himself! What do you think?
The 17th psalm paints a picture of a king who will be so powerful that nations will flee at his word. His strength, however, will come from God who is his lord and teacher. This king will also get rid of wickedness, purging Jerusalem. He will be a holy, sinless king, and his main role will be to lead the people in righteousness. Although he is sinless, he does not seem to be divine or come down from above. I don’t think the text says anything about divinity, but it does say in 17:38, “The Lord Himself is his king, the hope of him that is mighty through (his) hope in God,” suggesting that this king is holy and powerful only because he has a close relationship with God.
I found that often when Solomon spoke of the Lord he refered to him in the context of savior, righteous judge, and king of Israel. It mentions the messiah possibly coming from heaven, but i was suprised at the amount of times he is refered to as some type of judge. Then towards the end of Solomon's psalms he speaks more of the Lord being King over Israel for generations to come. So i'm confused as to what their main belief of the messiah is; a righteous judge or the King of Israel forever? It seems they see the messiah as both?
In this text I see the Messiah defined as the one that will be the hope for the Jews. Since Jerusalem has been destroyed, they hold on to the hope that one day the Messiah will come and by his divine powers take care of the Romans who defiled the temple but also the other enemies of the Jews. The Messiah will restore the Jews back to the days of David. He will be their king and rule over them. Based on this view I would say that the writer of this work could possibly be a Pharisee because this is how they saw the Messiah.
Joshua Matthew Basil
I thought you post was interesting and I wanted to let you know that I am doing a research paper of the Son of Man that is used in Enoch and when they talk about their Messiah he is not only the King, the righteous one, he is also the judge. He is both. He not only saves them and restores the temple but he also is the judge. I hope that helps.
There is no telling for sure if the Messiah comes only form Heaven or if he is surely divine, or what it's exact principal role is. But I the text does mention that if this Messiah is divine if he lives without sin.
It really is confusing trying to figure out who "he" is and what his role but is mentions this "Messiah" will lead the people from captivity.
Josh. you are right he does mention him many times as some type of Judge. and remember, you are super duper
Todd. you have summed it up real good when you mentioned that the Messiah will be the hope for the Jews.
The Messiah come is a king that comes from the Davidic line. He possibly comes from heaven. He is pure of sin and was anointed by the Lord. He has the wisdom of God. This leads me to believe he is considered divine. It says he will be the judge and he will gather the holy people together and they will be sanctified unto the Lord. That makes me think of that final sanctification we will reach where we finally reach incorruptibility. I would have to say that his role is to lead the people and judge the unrighteous. This text also mention that the messiah has a close relationship with the Lord.
Todd I like your comment about the Messiah being the hope for Jews. I feel that I look at the Messiah like that a lot.
The Messiah that is shown within this text seems to be a high ruler (not an earthly ruler) who will destroy the unrighteousness of the nations. It says that he shall destroy the pride of teh sinner as a potter's vessel. He will destroy their pride that causes them to think too highly of themselves. He also seems to be judge of what is righteous and what is unrighteous. He will be glorified though in all that is done through his great power.
to Joshua
I saw that same tension between the Messiah being a king as well as a judge. However, when I think about our view of the Messiah that is exactly what we do; we mesh them together and come up with a worthy interpretation.
to ch
I was kind of confused by the being without sin and the issue of the divinity of the Messiah. For us we take "being without sin" to mean he is divine, but we have a hard time saying that in this case and rightly so.
Much has already been commented that the Messiah figure seems to be king-like in nature and a descendant of David.
Yet, as to the divinity of the messiah, it seems that he must be divine. The author even states in 17,1 that "Thou art king, O Lord" or something to that effect.
Admittedly, Lord does not always signifiy divinity. Yet the context of the passage seems to suggest that the author is referring to God.
In the end, the king seems to be a judge of the nations as well. Which, to me, would denote either an immensly powerful emperor (like a Caesar) or a divine person, God himself.
Comment 1/2 to everyone
We all seem to have similar observations and/or thoughts on this? Is there anyone with a divergent point of view?
comment 2/2
Todd, it is helpful to see that, as you pointed out this is a messiah for the jews.
Are there any references to the messiah being a redeemer for the gentiles as well, or are they only abot his judging of the gentiles?
All the Messianic language seemed to come from the seventeenth psalm. It may have occurred elsewhere, but I didn't pick up on it. The Messiah clearly comes from the line of David. He will reign over Israel and will subdue and punish the sinful foreign nations. The Messiah is clearly divinely appointed, but it is not so clear to me whether he is divine or just an ideal earthly king. 17:41 says that he will be pure from sin. However, we have already noted that perfection was seen as humanly attainable through obedience of the law. 17:37 says that the Messiah will not put his trust in military might, but rather in the Lord. At first, I thought that this might indicate a divine, rather than earthly ruler. However, it occurred to me that there are numerous examples in the OT of the faithful gaining military victory over superior forces through trust in God.
I remain undecided as to whether the Messiah is a divine ruler or just an idealized king.
The text seems to make it clear the Messiah is going to come as a conquering King from the line of David. It appears from the text he will be a mighty king and he will destroy wickedness and turn people from evil ways, but I did not see anywhere where the Messiah is thought to be divine. This type of passage really clears up a lot of questions I had about what the Jews are really looking for in their Messiah.
Ian Comment 1/2
I must have missed the part where it said that he was pure of sin and has the wisdom of God. I guess if one is pure of sin, then you have to assume at the same time they are divine.
Nice point.
team dime 29 comment 2/2
I agree with you, the fact that we have to believe a man without sin is divine once again makes perfect sense. Also the description of him as king makes him sound more like an almighty judge than a normal king.
First and formost I took the part where Solomon tells of an alien coming from heaven. This does not exactly say that the messiah is divine, but one could read into it as if he was, but it does though help us to believe that he is without sin. Heaven as we know is perfect and can have no sin in it so if he is coming from there then we are lead to believe that he has no sin. Also in terms of what type of writer this may be I think that it could possibly be a Pharisee because there is much talk of "hope" and restorer and I think that this is mainly what he Parisees believed.
Comment 1/2
John I also must have missed the pure of sin part, but I too had the same struggles of trying to deteremine and depict whether he was just a great earthly king or if he really was divine. Just because he was divine in heaven does it make him divine here on earth?
Comment 2/2
Jace Man o man do I ever agree with you on how this cleared up on the thought process that the Jews had in what they were looking for in a Messiah. It was very grey to me before, but I completely agree my friend
It seems to me that the Messiah talked about in the Psalms of Solomon must be of the Davidic line according to talk in chp. 17:4 and 21 of the text. The Messiah also seems to be both judge and king, in that he “will destroy godless nations with the word of his mouth” and “purge Jerusalem of those nations who trample her” 17: 22, 24. I will also take a shot in the dark and say that the Messiah talked about may be divine. I am coming to this conclusion based off chp. 17: 36 -37 primarily, because it says that “he himself will be pure of sin” and that “he will not stumble.” Now I realize that in the context of the passage that he may be simply referring to a very righteous human man, but it seems that he may be talking about someone greater than simply a human being. I may very well be way off base on this, but again, I do not claim to be an expert on the subject or text.
In Response to Teamdine29…
I really enjoyed reading what you had posted in regards to the messiah talked about being possibly divine. I am not sure of this fact exactly myself, but I seem to more agree with you, than disagree. I also liked your speculation that the messiah may be from heaven. Great work and excellent comments!
In Response to Joshua Matthew Basil… (2 of 2)
I agree very much with what you said about how the text describes the messiah that is to come. I also found it very interesting how much talk there was about the messiah as a Judge. Lastly, I tend to agree with you that the messiah may be coming from heaven. Though I am not sure and would not bet money on this, I do tend to agree with your hypothesis. Great Work.
Joshua-Good observations about the contrast of the judge and king. Todd-the possible connection and similarity in usage with Enoch is interesting.
John-The distinction between a divine and ideal king is a good one to consider. Your points about sinlessness and trust in God also suggest that this king is not divine.
It seems to me that the text portrays a Messiah who is righteous, but only in the sense that he will redeem Israel in this life. He is not a divine Messiah, but he is one that has been anointed by God and will cleanse the earth from unrighteousness. The Messiah is recognized as someone from the line of David and will come to restore what Israel has lost (purity of the temple, the law, land, and etc.) There is no indication, that I have noted, where the Messiah has "descended from heaven" though he has been sent by God himself.
- Jason
After reading the text and some of the comments that others had to say, i have to come to the conclusion that the ruler that they speak of is not divine. I think that he was sent by God, but was not God. I think that this king that was sent by God, was sent to deal with the unrighteous and unholy. In fact it says, "Shattering unrighteous rulers", which i think is pretty clear.
Elijah,
I really like what you had to say, you make some very great points...in fact you and i appeared to be thinking the same thing
Josh Basil...
i like how you referred to you previous knowledge of Solomon. Good thinking!
In response to Todd and others:
I agree that this messianic figure is a savior for the Jews, but not necessarily for any other nation. I certainly did not see any clues that this might be a savior for all humanity. This seems to argue against any idea that the messianic figure might be Christ.
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